Festival6, Portmeirion - Joint Operation

[Jerry G]

It was a pleasure to work with a friendly and professional team of 4x4Responders this Sunday and Monday at the Portmeirion Festival. Job was to extricate vehicles from one of the worst wet and muddy car parks I've seen in a while. Why they put a main car park in a field which was reputed to be below sea level is beyond me. Don't they know the tide comes in and it rains in Wales!!
Wales 4x4R kicked the job off and requested assistance through the joint working procedure. They were joined by NW4x4R, WM4x4R and GW4x4R, and I think maybe Hereford? If I 've forgotten anyone - apologies.
A terrific group of like minded people.
We all mucked in together, literally, and after pulling each other out a few times, soon got used to where we could drive. Not many places! We were excluded from one of the main car parks, only tractors in there and even some of them had to be rescued.
Sunday night looked grim, with the possibility that we would have to stand down as it was becoming difficult to move around especially with more rain forecast, but Monday morning came round and we just got stuck in - excuse the pun. By early afternoon we had practically cleared one of the main car parks. An excellent effort by all.
Duncan ably took on the co-ordination role for all the Responders present and looked after our welfare. Thank you for the Pizza and Chips!
This was a magnificent effort by 4x4 Response and one we shouldn't be afraid of trumpeting across the land to highlight the capabilities and professionalism of our organisation. Best wishes to all.

[Tim Childe]

I've heard a few reports back from our guys that went - and it sounds like it was quite 'interesting'

It's really good to see different groups coming together and working well alongside each other.


Well done guys.

Tim.C

[Richard Jewell]

Top work to the guys and gals that went.

However, is there any reason why the organisers did not call in expensive commercial recovery operators?

[Duncan Sanders]

And you can name some local recovery operators that could actually do that in a sensible timeframe? I don't know of many companies nationally that could pull off something like that to be honest.

[Richard Jewell]

I know 2 locally, and I haven't been in the trade for over 2 decades.

My concern is the network is being increasingly utilised by commercial entities who have failed in their planning. Those commercial enterprises are utilising a charity to save the day, and aren't paying the charity/those charities the commercial rate for the work.

We're increasingly becoming a cheap default for people who put profits before planning. Little seems being done to stop this trend. I didn't join to be a cheap source of labour and equipment for business enterprises, and I won't turn out for such a call unless I know my team is being paid a realistic commercial rate.

[Warren Dukes]

I agree with Richard's comments almost entirely. It's one thing to 'help out' in a genuinely unexpected event or emergency situation, but, when proper Risk Management and Contingency Planning is not carried out by commercial event organisers, it is not really the remit of 4x4R to drag them out of the mire. However, being paid a commercial rate to do the job would raise a whole host of other potential pitfalls and issues, mostly centred on everyone's favourite subjects; Health and Safety and Public Liability. I would not be happy to commit any of my members to such an enterprise, and, in all honesty, I would expect them to refuse the task anyway, including our Treasurer who is a professional recovery operator away from 4x4R.
I doubt everyone will agree with my thoughts, that's the whole point of fora such as this, but please do give both sides of the argument serious consideration. It could save a lot of heartache in the long term...

[Mark Cummings]

I agree entirely with the above. For commercial events then we should only be involved IF the council or police have stepped in and requested our assistance. A commercial activity calling on us because we are easier or cheaper is not on.

A small charity event asking for assistance is different.

This is in no way meant to diminish the work done by the guys at Portmeirion. Qudos to them.

[Jerry G]

Well this has opened the proverbial can of worms!
I don't know who made the initial call upon our services - Wales can enlighten us on that.
All I know is if we are asked to assist then that is what we do, shouldn't we?
The semantics of who pays etc is irrelevant to me as long as I get some recompense for fuel used.
I don't know of any commercial set up who could assemble 10 or 12 4x4's at a few hours notice, with more available if required, in a location away from any large centre of population - unless you know different.
The organisers did call in help locally and they ended up with tractors from local farmers etc. They were also intending sending the festival contractors around from the main festival site when that was clear and safe. Bear in mind the car parks we were operating in were some distance from the festival site itself.
They promptly ripped up the fields making large ruts which when you pulled a car over them removed various bits off the front end!!
For our part there was NO injury, or damage to ourselves or our vehicles, nor to any of the vehicles we assisted out of the car parks. The same cannot be said for other third parties who were involved in the exercise!
To respond to a point made in another thread, some of us are trained in winch work (not used here I hasten to add!) and recovery techniques, and the very nature of 4x4Response membership means that we are a responsible group who undertake risk assessments at every step of the way.
To the point about planning and contingency by the organisers, the whole thing must have been approved by the local authority and police before a licence was granted, so perhaps the criticism should be aimed at them? Perhaps they failed in their duty of care in not ensuring that proper advance arrangements were in place?
What I can tell you is that the festival goers we helped were absolutely delighted, some congratulated us on our professionalism and careful removal of their vehicle from the site. Some said they would prefer us to help them rather than a large tractor.
As to the whole question of liability and insurance then that indeed is something for National to consider and offer guidance on together with our insurance experts.
But from a purely personal point of view I just wish we could move away from the PC brigade, the ambulance chasers, and all the other litigation and money motivated creepy crawlies and let common sense prevail!! Some hope! There, I've said it now and feel much better!
Let's learn from these events and come up with some guidlines that we can all sign up to.

[Warren Dukes]

Originally Posted by JerryG

Well this has opened the proverbial can of worms!
I don't know who made the initial call upon our services - Wales can enlighten us on that.
All I know is if we are asked to assist then that is what we do, shouldn't we?
The semantics of who pays etc is irrelevant to me as long as I get some recompense for fuel used.
I don't know of any commercial set up who could assemble 10 or 12 4x4's at a few hours notice, with more available if required, in a location away from any large centre of population - unless you know different.
The organisers did call in help locally and they ended up with tractors from local farmers etc. They were also intending sending the festival contractors around from the main festival site when that was clear and safe. Bear in mind the car parks we were operating in were some distance from the festival site itself.
They promptly ripped up the fields making large ruts which when you pulled a car over them removed various bits off the front end!!
For our part there was NO injury, or damage to ourselves or our vehicles, nor to any of the vehicles we assisted out of the car parks. The same cannot be said for other third parties who were involved in the exercise!
To respond to a point made in another thread, some of us are trained in winch work (not used here I hasten to add!) and recovery techniques, and the very nature of 4x4Response membership means that we are a responsible group who undertake risk assessments at every step of the way.
To the point about planning and contingency by the organisers, the whole thing must have been approved by the local authority and police before a licence was granted, so perhaps the criticism should be aimed at them? Perhaps they failed in their duty of care in not ensuring that proper advance arrangements were in place?
What I can tell you is that the festival goers we helped were absolutely delighted, some congratulated us on our professionalism and careful removal of their vehicle from the site. Some said they would prefer us to help them rather than a large tractor.
As to the whole question of liability and insurance then that indeed is something for National to consider and offer guidance on together with our insurance experts.
But from a purely personal point of view I just wish we could move away from the PC brigade, the ambulance chasers, and all the other litigation and money motivated creepy crawlies and let common sense prevail!! Some hope! There, I've said it now and feel much better!
Let's learn from these events and come up with some guidlines that we can all sign up to.

Hi Jerry, I doubt you'll ever come across anyone less PC than me mate. My point is not about any of the work done up until now, but, and it's a big but, it's more about the single occasion where something goes squiffy and something or someone gets broken. No amount of goodwill in the world will help against a clued up ambulance chaser, who's sole purpose in life is to make shed loads of cash out of other peoples misfortunes at any cost to the "defendant" for want of a better expression.
It would only take one incident to go that way and the gutter press would have a field day. If that were to happen, unless we as an organisation were on very solid ground, legally speaking it could easily spell the end of 4x4R as we know it. I've been doing this since 2001 when I first joined Somerset 4x4 Response, as it was then, and it would sadden me beyond belief if it all went belly up. It's not a rant, I hope - it wasn't meant to be...

[Ross Codrai]

Originally Posted by Chopper

Those commercial enterprises are utilising a charity to save the day, and aren't paying the charity/those charities the commercial rate for the work.

Isn't this what the RNLI do? What makes us different?

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