Membership fees?

[Bob Hatcher]

[quote name='PeteRestall' date='17 January 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1263689183' post='10483']

It's been a very long few weeks, what with 4x4 response, work and flu.



Just like to apologise if anyone thinks my comments on this thread have been out of order or OTT.

[/quote]



I doubt if many of the team controllers have had a full night' sleep for a week or two, in some case probably not since before Xmas

[John Hudson]

Alasdair, I'm not sure what I have said that gives you the impression that I think Goverment looks down on you and Bob I haven't been suggesting that you arent doing extremely good work... not my point at all.



Forget funding and fees and membership the one thing that keeps hitting my in a good number of the replies I've read here is that generally "you lot" seem to look down on people who dont meet with your long term goals, they are just wannabees and have-a-go heros... it's not exactly an encouraging line to take. It really doesnt give out a good message and make you all sound a bit elitest.



The point that I was trying to make was that when you FIRST started however long ago that was, I'm sure that others viewed you in the same way that you now view this "Black Kinght" - lol... I take it then none of you have flashing lights???



Alasdair, I completely respect your point about prefering a small dedicated team and I can understand why

[Bob Hatcher]

Hi John,



I can't speak for other teams but when Somerset (now Wessex) 4x 4 Response started as a small group, we were able to show through the back ground of several of us that we

1) knew what we were talking about and

2) understood the relationships between the various emergency services,



I won't go into my background in great depth but I have worked for both Cat 1 & 2 responders so do understand their requirements. Likewise there are several other teams led by members with a background in the emergency services. So we can as it were talk the same language as our potential users.



I understand and accept that some EPOs have been warier than others when it comes to the concept but I think that most are now 'on-board'. By ensuring as much as is possible, a commonality of practice we can 'offer' referees who will speak to the local EPO when a new team forms.



With regards to flashing ambers, yes they have a place. That place is when operating at SLOW speed or when stationary to ensure the visibility of members' vehicles. We make clear to members that they are NOT a poor man's blue light, nor should they be used when driving at normal road speed -- there is simply no requirement.

[Teresa Nahajski]

[quote name='John Hudson' date='17 January 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1263689823' post='10485']

I take it then none of you have flashing lights???



[/quote]



Oh no, he's opened the "flashing lights" can of worms! You'd have to start a whole new topic for that one.



I have some flashing lights - they're on the corners and they're called hazard warning lights. One thing you'll find on here is although we share a common theme, there are lots of things we disagree on.



As with any group, people have their own opinions - on here it's on flashing lights, stickers, uniforms, training, what make of 4x4 is best, etc. But at least everyone has the chance to say their bit, which doesn't always happen with other groups. I hope you go along to a group and find out if it's for you, and if not, do your own thing and start a group of your own that does it the way you want to.



I don't agree with everything I read on here, but between us all we've got a fair amount of knowledge on different areas. I've only been involved with 4x4 Response for a year but it has changed my life (taken over it to some extent!) and I got more pride and satisfaction from 3 days volunteering than I would ever get in my day job. Just find the right thing for you, try it, do it and enjoy it.

[Rikki Chequer]

I wouldn't say elitist John,, and please do not think the following remarks are directed at you or your situation personally,



I have to say for me its more a matter of trust and team work. being part of the team, not only during the winter callouts, but during the quieter summer months, when theres no "glory", only training days and social events. When callouts are for marshalling sponsored walks etc.



When the harsh weather comes, and If I am out on a shout I want to know my team member backing me up has the skills and the fortitude to stick with the job. That only comes from a period of time working and getting to know people.



I am new as well, only recently joined my local group. but I joined and paid my money happily because it means I have a commitment not only during the odd period of snow and ice, but to train with, get to know, and even socialise with the other team members during the "off season". and also know even if I havent met them personally they have also made that commitment and have done much the same in their area.



Do I want to have as my back up someone who has seen a TV report and thinks thats fun, "Flavour of the month" joined on a whim for nothing, and when the boring summer come around and the training days is nowhere to be seen, but when its flavour of the month next year they appear again as a member, Or the guy who has been taught with me/ taught me, worked out together various methods and strategies and tested them to see if they work?



There is nothing wrong with wanting to help out when the brown stuff hits the whirly thing, however when it does in a big way I am sure you will understand the guys we havent worked with or trained with will be on last resort/soft jobs if tasked at all. At this moment in time I am to my team an unknown quantity, and do not expect until we have trained together to be included in anything other than "soft jobs", and to be honest for my and the other team members safety i wouldnt ask for it to be any other way.



Paying the very small subs, and turning up on training days shows commitment, expanding your skills in front of your peers gives all an idea of each others capabilities. and also ensures we know our own limitations.





I know if asked to go out on a night blowing a blizzard and high winds onto the moors to a remote village who I would want to be in the other vehicle... and it wouldnt be some one who only appears when the TV cameras are about !



back on the original subject,



If I go out into that howling gale and blizzard and drifting snow, not only do I need to know that the other vehicles driver is competant, I also want the reassurance if it all goes badly wrong, that there is a controller who knows where we are,. what we are trying to do and has resources at hand if it all goes tits up to get help to us/complete the job. that sort of resource and co-ordination takes time and money. As far as I know as yet 4x4 Response hasnt found a money tree to provide that. If I have to pay the equivilant of half a tank of DERV for that peice of mind, for something I choose to do, then its a small price to pay



Its not about "Elitism" its about building a team.

[Mark Avo]

Must disagree with the comments about those who only turn out when it hits the fan.



There is a place for everyone as long as they are not a complete t@sser.



If I was out in some really nasty weather I'd much rather be with someone I know to be properly trained & expirienced BUT If I was stuck in a drift & I had the choice of a 'wannabe'/'glory hunter' or nothing I'll take the former - If he knows nothing I'll try to explain what I need. If said 'glory hunter' turns out to know what he's doing then all the better.



Of the few things we've done as a new group, sometimes you just need bodies - As long as someone can keep an eye on them I dont see a problem.



Back to the fees though - as I mentioned earlier. I think that anyone not prepared to pay a tenner to join a well organisied group & receive newsletter/stickers/training etc etc is welcome to go elsewhere. Perhaps it's a matter of price - I doubt anyone you complain at £5, maybe 10 tops. Once you get to 15/20 then maybe that's a bit much.



I've just had another thought that may turn this around.

Say there's a 'bloke down the road'. You know him fairly well & he's a top bloke, much expirienced offroader, done loads of winching etc but doesnt want the hassle of joining up, doing training, etc etc. He has said to you the if you ever need help, give him a call.

Should there be a mechanism for including them in the group as a backup/emergency resource - I think there should. I know that if I was stuck in this theoretical ditch/drift that I would be very happy to see him, perhaps moreso than any of the club members.





So there, merit in both sides of the argument

• If you want to get involved on a regular basis then pay up.
  
• If you are prepared to help out once in a blue moon & your qualifications can be vouched for by a trusted member then you should be on a backup/emergency register so you can be involved should the need arise.
  

[Warren Dukes]

[quote name='nigel leyland' date='12 January 2010 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1263298614' post='9911']

Do membership fees put off prospective members? (I've posted this here as I would like all to read and input not just senior members......)



Well it seems they do...!



Given that responders have to be members, (insurance) and that the small fee that groups charge is used to run the club (which may be a charity) and in some instances is possibly subsidised......

the following may need to be addressed....



A. Do we want need members who feel that they should not "have to pay for the preiveledge of helping"?

B. Need to adjust fees (if possible)?

C. Need to state up front why the fees need to be charged and what the group provides to the member?



You're thoughts please.......



Nigel.

[/quote]



To get the thread back on track herewith my thoughts...



A. I personally have no issue with membership fees, I know how much it costs to run these teams and without 'corporate' levels of sponsorship every penny raised counts.



B. Raising fees may be desirable in respect of raising working cash, but careful consideration should be given. Not all responders have huge amounts of spare cash. I think the Wessex model is reasonable; £10pa plus a one-off joing fee of £10.



C. Yes. An explanation, however basic should be made available to prospective members.

[nigel leyland]

[quote name='nigel leyland' date='12 January 2010 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1263298614' post='9911']

Do membership fees put off prospective members? (I've posted this here as I would like all to read and input not just senior members......)



Well it seems they do...!



Given that responders have to be members, (insurance) and that the small fee that groups charge is used to run the club (which may be a charity) and in some instances is possibly subsidised......

the following may need to be addressed....



A. Do we want need members who feel that they should not "have to pay for the preiveledge of helping"?

B. Need to adjust fees (if possible)?

C. Need to state up front why the fees need to be charged and what the group provides to the member?



You're thoughts please.......



Nigel.

[/quote]

so........





I'll start with B......

It's virtually impossible to run any team reasonably well wihtout some anual income, as we are not large enough to find sufficient funding nor have a big enough benifactor our only recourse is to take a fee from members, regardless of the other aspect as pertinent as they are.....the reality is we need the money! It therefore goes without saying that fees should not be excessive and I should imagine that groups with more members or free resources probably charge less. Indead as far as RNE are concerned it's the first thing that gets looked at each year when the bookkeeping is done, unfortunately we've not been able to reduce it.

Ergo A......

Bit of a loaded question I'm afraid folks, because given the above.....we're not going to get members who don't want to pay the fees we have to charge are we!!!!

That leaves C....

Obvious isn't, yes we need to provide information for current and prospective members.....in all aspects but I hope that posting this thread here will go some way to enlightening those who come along and want to ask the question but don't and then leave without seeing past "they expect me to pay to help!".

Lets facce it, you've heard about 4x4response, you think its a good idea, you're the sort of person who thinks they could afford a few hours now and then to help out, especially when it's as bad as things have been and the lads could do with a bit of a hand......then you find out it's going to cost you ££ before you turn a wheel......some will see past and investigae more, and understand, possibly joining us.....however some will be totally against the concept in principal and walk away.....but others will be found on various forums voicing there opinions and putting others of taking a look and making there own minds up!



Nigel.

[John Potts]

The reasons I'm happy to pay a fee:



1. In Yorks-Lincs, the only outlay is £10 per annum (plus £10 refundable deposit for membership pack) - a very reasonable sum, especially when you consider that my good lady gets membership at half price on the back of mine.

2. In paying this £10, I've accessed a whole new network of new friends (some who've become very firm friends) and the social life that goes with that.

3. I'm always keen to learn new skills and paying the membership fee has given me access to some quality training from people who really know what they're talking about. This serves to make me a far better off-road driver than I would otherwise have been, but has also given me a greater awareness of my vehicles capabilities (I'm pretty new to 4x4 ownership compared to many on here).

4. It's given me the opportunity to feel damned good about myself when I've helped someone - not as an individual, but as a member of a fine group of public spirited folk that I'm proud to be a part of.



So yes, I think the fee is justified

[Paul Johns]

Ive been key in setting up a Team, Without membership fee's i wouldnt have been able to provide Insurance. There are lots of others reasons already covered but Insurance stands for alot!