Membership of more than one team
 

It is entirely up to each team to set their own Membership criterion.



However the Trustees were asked whether individuals could join more than one team. we have discussed it amongst the five of us and offer the following guidance.





It is the view of the trustees that membership of any 4x4 Response team which is itself a member of the National Network has certain transferrable benefits (and responsibilities).



We would anticipate that all teams would have a policy of offering mutual aid and general co-operation to any other team both across border and also more widely across the country should the need arise. Remembering that the insurance is under a national policy and applies no matter where a member operates. We would also expect a team to call for mutual aid whenever appropriate i.e. call the nearest units regardless of team borders.



We would hope that this “mutual aid” would also extend to training; social; publicity events or any other event which a member may wish to attend or where a team may like to show that the organisation is national such as 4x4 shows, emergency services shows and the like.



From time to time a member may find himself spending a prolonged period in another team's area perhaps due to work commitments etc. at such times a “temporary transfer” may be in order, at other times a more permanent transfer may be in order with the mutual agreement of both teams



Therefore the trustees cannot currently envisage a reason why a member should join more than one team.



This ensures that the member does not pay two lots of membership, and that the national network has an accurate count of members and in the event of a major incident (flooding on a national scale, pandemic flu etc.) can therefore give a true representation of the resources that we can offer.



It is recognised that from time to time members may feel that they are gaining an unfair advantage from not being a member of a neighbouring team. In such cases it may be appropriate to offer a donation towards the host team's funds. This however would be considered a discretionary donation and should not be expected or a value set.

If only it were that simple, Bob :rolleyes:

such a shame that members of Suffolk Rover Rescue are having to pay to join N&S as a support member to help at their events when the national are asking that

We would hope that this “mutual aid” would also extend to training; social; publicity events or any other event which a member may wish to attend or where a team may like to show that the organisation is national such as 4x4 shows, emergency services shows and the like.

but hey ho thats the way it goes

Carl,

NS4x4R I believe have made every effort to support the sentiment expressed by Bob, but offers of meetings of controllers, joint exercises and training etc seem to have been ignored by SRR.

I can't comment on the exact circumstances you describe becsuse I don't have all the facts but I am aware if no contact along the lines of 'can I come as a member of SRR' or any assertion by us that individual SRR members ''have to pay to join to help at a NS4xR event'. I assume it was the choice of the person concerned to join us.

That you feel the need to air your grievance in public without having contacted me or any other members of the NS4X4R committee first is akso 'interesting'.

Well said Jim

jim, i will send you an email tonight re this subject,

I can help the trustees out on that point.

I'm a member of two SAR teams. There's my home team, of which i am a full member and do most of my call puts.

Then there's the second team of which I am an associate member. This came about because I have family on their patch and spend a lot of time there. I noticed from Twitter that while is a in their patch there were jobs I could have helped with, including one less than a mile from where I was. I contacted their chairman and became an Associate Member. I don't train with them, don't do fundraising with them, and its up to me to make sure all my training and certification are kept up to date with my home team but I'm on their call out list and can and do attend their occasional job on their patch. The only concession from me is that I pay £20 annually to go on their insurance.

It works very well and is refreshingly easy in practice...IF people actually want to make it work. After all, if there's a major incident while I'm over there it would be wasteful and petty not to let me assist just because of politics and squabbling.

So now you know - other volunteer responder organisations do it, and do it well. All it takes is a willingness to make it happen.

The Police do it (off duty officers regularly make arrests on someone elses turf, done it myself on a few occasions over the years). In extreme weather or national emergency the Police report to their nearest station, regardless of which Force they work for or where their home station may be. So do Ambo (ditto - they're not going to let someone die just because they're on someone elses patch enjoying an ice cream), and so do SAR. The end-game is assisting the public, and anything that gets in the way of that goal should be dismissed, overcome or eliminated.

Hi Bob,

completely hit the nail on the head with the insurance as a national cover but there is a great deal of people I have met over my time with 4x4R that have joined 2 or more groups for the reasons of different call outs and assistance across events.

I for one am a member of both Hertfordshire and Beds and Cambs. Paid both memberships fees live in Herts but mostly support beds and cambs wth events.

following that there is a good few members across these clubs that are members of both personally I think they should be back as one club as a few years ago but that's my opinion!

I'm still happy to pay to join both as that funding helps out both clubs but I guess others might not in future. only time will tell I guess!

Ross

I personally don't see a need for membership of more than one team. As a member of an affiliated team I am insured to carry out response activities, wherever that may be, through my national affiliation. If I wish to volunteer my time, equipment & expertise to a team I'm is not a member of there should be no reason why not, provided all the teams concerned are made aware, agree & that there should be no conflict of interest.
We in the Highlands rarely get called out. If I were to make myself available to Lothian, on an as required basis, as long as they accept my qualifications & presence in their team, I am not required by my parent team & all conditions are met, where is the problem?

As an after thought, technically, we are all part of the same team once we join 4X4 Response.

Surely it would be a choice thing? If a responder wants to be a full responder for more than one group and understand they need to pay and be active etc why not let them and actively allow it?

Because it complicates availability reporting etc if the responder (inevitabily) forgets to inform Group A that he has been deployed by team B.

Surely the only reason a person would join more than one group is that the first group is not doing enough to keep them busy... so the chances of availibilty issues is almost nil, and even if they did get a clash, it's no different to them being out shopping etc and unable to attend a call out anyway, its just just in this case they are on another call out with another club.

Surely the only real issue is being double insured, so you could end up with the two insurers arguing over who should pay out. So basically it is very important that if you are with two groups, and for some reason you are on a call with both, you must choose and stick to working with the same group for the entire call out.

We are with other non-related clubs, all of which have public liability insurance, and also have it with our business insurance, and house insurance, in fact I sometimes wonder just how many times my wife and I are insured for the same event should the worst happen. The thing is, if a ferret mauls an old lady and steals her dentures, I wouldn't think of claiming I was out with 4x4Response... now which ferret club could prove interesting!

Sorry I don't agree as Clive said it would be the same as if you were on holiday etc.

If both groups were to be deployed to the same incident (which would be rare as I am sure one would be deployed and ask for mutual aid from the other) as long as they were an active responder and were working to the rules of the group they were responding for where is the issue?

Some groups are incredibly social and do social days/nights away if a responder was a member of two groups there is an instant benefit.

Can I ask is it currently not allowed by 4x4Response UK or is it just up to the individual groups?

Individual groups make the call.

Operationally availability depends how groups collate, for instance Yorkshire have an online system for responders to indicate their availability for up to 2 weeks (just upped from 1 week) ahead, other groups use sms responder (or similar) and ask at the point of need.

If groups were to extend social and event support type invites to neighbouring groups then the non callout arrangements would not require membership of more than one group and operationally mutual support arrangements could cover responders living in border areas (YR does this with Mitts for a NHS trust that straddles the border).

It's not often I isit thee boards these days, let alone post. So you can take that as just how exasperated I am to find this old chestnut still being debated all these years later!

Given the following:
1. You are a registered/qualified Responder.
2. You are covered by either the RUK4x4 or your own Groups Ins policy.
3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers)

So why would you need or want to join a second Group?

Given that doing so would:

1. Possibly incur a double insurance premium.
2. Definitely corrupt head count statistics nationally.
3. Likely promote confusion for controllers at the most demanding call out periods.

If there is some benefit to be gained from multiple membership for Group or individual Responder please enlighten us.....

Well the first benefit which is not exactly hard to see is, of being a member of multiple groups, means you get to be a member of their forum/news letters and events, so get to find out/indulge in group activities, which may not actually be dirrectly related to actual call outs, E.G. training and socialising. We do lots of community related events with SE4x4R, which are not anything to do with group statistics or confusing a controller. A decent 4x4R group is not all about callouts, its about socialising, getting to know your team members and learning who has your back before things get needy. Some people may want to indulge in the activities of multiple groups, especially when living on or near group boarders, or as I have seen, being in a group that does not really do anything, so want to be a member of a neighbouring group that is highly active.

Lets face it, the overall point for doing 4x4R is to help out in dire situations but get some enjoyment out of doing it, otherwise what is the point of all the associated costs of being a member, like clothing, lights, etc, I would be better off donating the money I have spent directly to a charity and saving myself the hassle.

With regards to statistics... whoopy do... who really cares if some statistician gets his/her numbers wrong, nothing new there! We are volunteers, with no contractual obligations, so the best you can ever do is make a guess at how many are actually available at any specific moment in time anyway.

So really it comes down to just one thing, as far as I can see... insurance... which can be resolved by just choosing a group to respond to for a specific event, and only working for that group controller for the duration of that event. In Kent, this happens regularly with joint callouts between KSAR and SE4X4R, where there are several people who are joint members of both groups, but have to choose who they are with at the start of the callout. We are told how important this is during training, and get reminders at group meetings from time to time, but it's not exactly rocket science to remember once told.

I think some people seem to forget that we are all volunteers and this is supposed to be something the members enjoy doing the majority of the time. Because of this, we do not mind enduring a little short term hardship for the good of others when the chips are down, but at the end of the day we pay out a fair bit of money for the good of our communities and then want to have fun playing with all our toys for a legitimate and hopefully selfless assistance to other people when we are needed...

Richard

That's all very sensible stuff and works because ALSAR have a set level of training and accreditations across the board however because our organisation has grown organically with out central direction or administration each team operates in very different ways. I have noticed this on several instances when we have worked with other 4x4r groups and its unfortunately not just the little things!

There is no way of knowing that a responder from (for the sake of argument) kent will have the same skills, levels of training, competences or equipment carried as a responder from Carlisle and here lies the problem.

We train regularly with our local SAR group and have tried to emulate some of the key skills and practices, infact all of our police vetted members have the opportunity to go through a search tec's course with KSAR .. this gives the team the edge when responding to a SAR callout as they know exactly whats expected of them.

I would have no issue welcoming members of other groups if I knew they had been trained and operated to the same standard as my team, thats not to say I think my team is superior to any other, it is purely because as a trustee and officer of the group I have the confidence in my guys and their training to know that if anything untoward should happen I can back them 100% knowing they have followed the training as set out in the members manual and followed correct procedure.

unfortunately its about mitigating risk and liability for me, my members and my user agencies.

Clive, you have effectively cited socialising, communications and events as benefits......no reason a Group cannot extend those to fellow Responders, it's been done across the country for long enough.

James, Your concern is training and competency. I refer you to " ...3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers) ..." Liability mitigated!

I have to be honest Nigel I see the pros and very little cons to being allowed to join more than one group.

If both groups use the national policy there is no conflict as it's well the same policy.

You say there is no reason why the benefits of the other group couldn't be extended well yes quite but in reality unless you are an actual responder for that group you are unlikely to be be afforded these. I am not even sure how my group affords these things to other groups if they even do.

SE4X4R only let their members on their forum (I know the reason why just using it to make a point) so there isn't a way a single responder could benefit from their training/social etc unless they were also a member of them as well.

It's not always black and white. I think responders who are happy to give their time to both groups and pay the memberships of both groups then they should be given support not questioned as to why they would want to.

Quite simply as per my example above - I live in one SAR teams area, but spend substantial amounts of time on another SAR teams area.

I'm had access to the forums of at least 7 groups at the same time in the past, I've taken part in other groups events, have extended training to other groups and can name at least a couple of responders that have been loaned to other groups.

If the second group you are wanting to become a member of, cannot or does no, afford the above to you then the problem lies there, the last thing you should want to do is to promote the attitude by paying for a second membership fee........now ask yourself if you really want to be a member of that a group.

Yes I agree they should be given support, from the nieghbouring group by facilitating them!

Richard, there is no need for associate membership either......the benefit anyone has outlined can be forthcoming without dual membership.

I'll now leave it at that......

Having access to their forums is one thing. Having "responder" access to them is another.

It's not that they don't but I am guessing all the planning and details are on their forum. Their forum is for members only and I understand and know the reason why it's not them being difficult or anti social.

The issue is that as you say "the benefit anyone has outlined can be forthcoming without dual membership." and while that may or may not be true it just isn't the case the only people that seem to talk to each other from other groups are the trustees/officers. It just doesn't happen.

It's an interesting topic, and I'm yet to see a compelling argument for preventing dual membership.

The often cited issue is one of which RT looks after the welfare of a responder in the event of a mutual aid callout (a rare event in any case) and the answer is simple: whichever team engages the responder's services is responsible for them.

In Northants we have a number of responders who volunteer for us and for other voluntary organisations such as Raynet or SAR, both of which are more likely to be called-out at the same time as us than one of our neighbouring 44R teams, and it could be argued the same conflict over 'duty of care' applies - which organisation is looking after them during the incident?

Membership of a team, as opposed to being 'on loan', is far more useful as from a management point of view you will have full information on the responder's vehicle, skills, level of training etc., and know that they are aware of how you work at a local level. In a call-out, which is an especially difficult time for controllers, I'd far rather have the full details for the person I'm sending out from my known-good central records rather than "somebody from Timbuktu 44R is available if you need them - they've got a vehicle of some sort and might have been trained in something".

In terms of skewing the national figures, the variance is going to be negligible in the overall scheme of things. If a responder has joined two teams and paid two membership fees, then the issue of paying twice for the same insurance cover (in most cases it'll be the same national policy anyway) is really neither here nor there.

What seems to be forgotten is that 44R is 31 autonomous organisations, not branches of the same organisation - which is why we have different levels of training, membership arrangements, call-out systems and the like.

In Northants we have no issue with dual membership, or membership of partner organisations (except at trustee level in both cases), but I know that some teams, Wessex for example, forbid it.

In my case, I live in Cambridgeshire and was a member of both BHC and Northants teams (I was a member of Northants before there was a team in Cambridgeshire). I kept the Northants membership because they were far more active than BHC (as well as being a nice bunch of people), and now I'm no longer a member of BHC as I couldn't retain that membership and be a trustee for Northants as it would potentially create a conflict of loyalty, which the Charity Commission's rules say must be avoided - hence Northants's policy on not allowing joint membership at trustee level.

If a group makes a policy decision to exclude members of other teams from joining then that's their decision and I'm sure they have their reasons to do so, but I don't see any compelling reason to prevent it on a national basis.

Nobody has suggested anything regarding a national policy on this.

Nigel

Yes Liability potentially Mitigated but risk remains in that a responder from a neighbouring team is an unknown quantity. Please dont miss the point im trying to make, I welcome anything that encourages cross boundary working and brings neighbouring groups together, it is after all exactly what we joined up to do.. help others HOWEVER without any set minimum required operational standards, training levels, uniform, communications or even kit across the entire network you must agree that it proves difficult.

I am very fortunate in that I have two very professional and well organised neighbouring teams in Sussex and Surrey however we all three have very different working practices.

And neither was I, although a number of higher profile members of the wider community are of the opinion that it shouldn't happen which could be misconstrued.

Nigel

Yes Liability potentially Mitigated but risk remains in that a responder from a neighbouring team is an unknown quantity. Please dont miss the point im trying to make, I welcome anything that encourages cross boundary working and brings neighbouring groups together, it is after all exactly what we joined up to do.. help others HOWEVER without any set minimum required operational standards, training levels, uniform, communications or even kit across the entire network you must agree that it proves difficult.

I am very fortunate in that I have two very professional and well organised neighbouring teams in Sussex and Surrey however we all three have very different working practices.

With regards to belonging to two groups.. I have no issues with that at all but want to make a few points.
firstly any responder that joins my group is required to undergo basic training & has his or her vehicle and kit inspected before being appointed as a responder. this is the same for raw recruits as it is for seasoned veterans from other groups however we do offer an accelerated induction for other responders.
We, as do others operate our own insurance scheme, it is essential therefore that if responding to a callout where both teams are operating the relevant controller is aware so there is no issue with who's liability insurance is covering the activity of said responder.
And thirdly with that in mind a proportion of the membership fee paid goes directly to the cost of that insurance, therefore membership of the group requires the fee to be paid, I have members who are " dual hatted" and although I would dearly like to accept them at zero cost to themselves we do have to pay fees on there behalf therefore we charge them a membership fee.. not ideal but there we have it.

So far I think this thread has highlighted 2 things.

It would be good if groups would properly extend benefits of membership to responders from other groups.

That common minimum standards for responders would be beneficial under mutual support scenarios

I would have thought that Socialising, Communications, and Events are probably the highest benefits, making being the member of a group worth while, so definitely not something to be sniffed at... I guess from what you appear to say is, within 4x4R there are groups that are "just groups", and groups that act and feel like a "Club". Luckily I am a member of a group that the committee and senior members have worked very hard to make into a "club"

Within our group, I have seen members regularly helping other members move trailers, cars and caravans, loan trailers and tools, assist with fixing other's vehicles, work on a members wood land, plus many many other things that are not in anyway 4x4R related.

These people have become friends as well as 4x4 responders, and as a direct result of this internal networking, and the realising of peoples abilities and assets, many fantastic days out have been arranged for all the members of the group... Why would the group members want to extend these already busy and well attended social events to people from other groups, who are completely unknown to them, and who did not put anything into creating this network. It would be like inviting the receptionist of the your dentist office to your child's birthday party, you could do it, but why would you?.

Basically, while we technically pay into our "club" to cover our 4x4R insurance, with all the events, member interaction, plus all the other benefits this creates, it feels like we are getting a lot back for our money, making the membership money feel worth while...

So, here is another reason to be a member of more than one group... if I was ever to move away from Kent, judging by the way you talk, it looks like I peaked by joining SE4x4R as my first group, and will feel very let down should I need to join another one. For that reason alone, I would keep my SE4x4R membership going, just for when I was staying with relatives, and could still enjoy the friendship of the nice guys in the South East.

we've welcomed members from other groups as responders whilst in our area. the issue as i see it is more about how much access the volunteer gets to private information regarding our group or members as they arent actually an RNE member and whether they can vote at a members business meeting. i hope the responders we've had volunteer to us felt they were welcomed and treated fairly

Old chestnut indeed!
I would agree with Clive, Chris and Gordon.
Living on a county border I spent many years being a member of two teams before the National was formed. Whilst mutual aid existed, it gave me the full benefits of both organisations and a much better chance of being called out. It never caused any conflict or confusion.
Whilst that no longer applies, I can see the merits in certain situations.
I currently volunteer with several other organisations that benefit from 4x4R support and co-ordinate that on their behalf without any conflicts regarding membership or insurance.
It is just a matter of only wearing one hat at a time.
The bottom line is we are using our vehicles for the benefit of the community and how individuals reach that goal is a personal choice.

I live in hinckley which is in leicestershire and is on the edge of the a5 north side. On the oposit side of A5 is warwickshire and just over the boarder from hinckley is nuneaton. I work for west mids ambulance service in coventry. When had my discovery 1 when an ambulance got stuck they relied on the duty officers bmw x5 to pull it out but sometimes the tow rope had gone missing meaning they would call for recovery that would take hours. Once i went out to take my tow rope to the duty officer him expecting me to turn up in a response car but i had gone in my d1, x5 got stuck so i towed it out then i towed ambulance out. I was not normaly alowed to do this due to insurance purposes aparently. They could of called wm4x4 response out to do it. If i was a member of wm4x4 as well then insurance sorted as i would be there as 4x4r not wmas staff. Also when i finish work i could do couple of hours during the snow periods helping out wm4x4r. Cant do recovery stuff now as got a skoda octavia scout 4x4 like most nhs response cars but still have my kerr in car for use with duty officer.

Basicly if i was some sort of member to wm4x4 as well as lr4x4 as my parent group i surely would be more use. It takes me 20min traveling through cov n warwick area an 5-10 min in leicestershire area to get home.