Insurance for my Landcruiser

[PFordwe66]

Hello All,

I have been having trouble getting insurance for my Landcruiser, all of the "major" insurance companies I have spoken to are insisting that I have business insurance with all the extra charges that involves. I asked my current insurance company (RAC) where I should write to get them to countersign the 4x4 response insurance form, they told me that they DO NOT accept mailed correspondence! I currently have been quoted £245.00 but that is just private use and nothing to do with 4x4 Response work. I spoke to Adrian Flux and was quoted over £600.00!
Help!
Cheers,
Paul Ford WE66

[Adrian Flux Insurance]

Hello,

Did you want me to look at the quote you have had with us and check that all details are correct and your membership to this fourm has been added?

If so please PM me your Name and Postcode and Contact Number and the best time to call you

Dan.

[Arne Barker]

Paul - If Dan can't sort you out, try NFU over at Langley Burrell. They serve me well with my 4x4's and gave no probs with signing the 4x4response paperwork.
They even insure me with guns and beaters in David's cattle trailer pulled behind my truck for no extra charge.
Arne

[Tony Ferrari]

Paul

Unfortunately that is the problem with "major" insurance companies, if they don't understand something the standard approach seems to be to offer you a price you are bound to refuse.

Having said that, I have Class 1 business use on my policy as I use my car for work but usually it only costs £5 -£10 extra. I am currently with Adrian Flux, which saved me over £100 on my renewal from Aviva and included several things as standard that Aviva wanted to charge extra for.

Earlier this week I was talking to the Civil Contingencies Secretariat regarding insurance and they are talking to the Association of British Insurers (ABI) and agreed to reiterate to them that volunteer use should be regarded as social and domestic use in line with an agreement that has been in place since 1999. Unfortunately ABI members are not obliged to follow this advice as it is only guidance.

[PFordwe66]

Hi Arne - Thanks for that I will give them a try. Cheers Paul.

[GrahamPowys]

I know it doesn't help the OP, but my standard fully comp, social domestic and pleasure policy, with LV=Frizzell actually states I am allowed "volunteer useage" as part of the standard policy.

[Dean - Suffolk]

Mr Flux was more than happy to include voluntary Response work for free. However if I got paid 'mileage' that would work out around 60 quid extra on the annual premium. It worked out cheaper for me to not accept any recompense.

[WessexMario]

Mr Flux was more than happy to include voluntary Response work for free. However if I got paid 'mileage' that would work out around 60 quid extra on the annual premium. It worked out cheaper for me to not accept any recompense.

This is where you have to be VERY careful of how you express what we to to your insurers.
In Insurance, as in taxation, certain words have specific meanings, the subtlty of difference to other similar words may not be obvious but can impact your premium.

Any use of the word 'PAID' should be avoided, because you are not being 'paid', as in "salary for an employment".
In exactly the same way as 'payment for fuel actually used' when car-sharing to work is not considered taxable income, giving someone a lift in your car voluntarily is not 'carriage for hire or reward', which will incur an additional premium, as long as any consideration you receive does not exceed the actual expenditure incurred to make the journey, and as long as you have the absolute right to refuse to do the journey, or to refuse to allow any individual to enter your vehicle, these being legal tests of whether you are 'in employment' for the purpose of giving someone a lift.

The "giving other people lifts" as part of your 4x4x Response work should be covered by the statutory minimum cover given in all car insurance policies.
In law there is no difference between you giving a district nurse a lift to a patient compared to you giving a member of your family a lift to Sainsburys.
This aspect should require no additional premium and is not a factor as you will be insured to carry however many passengers the vehicle is designed for.

Where there is a difference, is the fact that you will be using your vehicle at a time and in places where motoring organisations and the police may be advising motorists to not do so. That could be considerd by insurance companies as "any other factor to be notified that may impact your risk".
It is this aspect that you may need to notify your insurance company of.

But, consider this...
When you go out on a call, how many other vehicles do you pass?
Have ANY of those other drivers needed to notify their insurance company that they have passengers who might contribute (directly or indirectly) just to fuel used, or that they are driving on open public roads in those adverse conditions?

Is there really any need to specifically mention 4x4 Response?
Are we making a mountain out of a molehill by doing so?

PS. I'm not convinced either way on the 'adverse conditions' aspect, I wouldn't be surprised if any average lawyer or insurance expert couldn't argue the case both ways.

[Tony Ferrari]

You are obliged to notify your insurance company as if you make a claim and they find out you are "responding" they may use it as an excuse to refuse your claim.

I don't know when you contacted Adrian Flux but since our current arrangement started they know exactly what 4x4 Response members are and do.

I do agree that volunteer driving is social and domestic use as long as you are only recompensed for fuel used. This is also reinforced by an agreement made between Local Authorities and Insurers back in 1999, we are currently trying to obtain a copy of this agreement.

Not for profit volunteer driving is generally defined by claiming no more than 40p a mile (the rate set by HMRC). Above this and they consider you are making a profit and therefore ARE being paid. In addition it could be considered that you are operating an unlicensed taxi!

Nationally we have been in discussion with the Civil Contingencies Secretariat who have agreed to talk to the Association of British Insurers (ABI) about this issue, and hopefully reinforcing the 1999 agreement (this time with National Government) although unfortunately the ABI can only advise insurers but they don't have to follow this advice.

Obviously we get a lot of posts of this nature and a common theme is that the cheapest policy won't allow me to do 4x4 response work. I would advise people that the cheapest may not be the best, for that and many other reasons. After all you get what you pay for!

[Dean - Suffolk]

Tony, it was early May when I insured the Disco Commercial. As I say, they were more than happy with the 'response' flag but as soon as I mentioned recompense for fuel (not profit) they wanted the extra. Perhaps Dan could clarify AF's position with regard to this?
We have been quoted a figure of 40p a mile as it happens.

[flabrosse]

I asked my current insurance company (RAC) where I should write to get them to countersign the 4x4 response insurance form

This is the first time I hear about needing to have insurance forms signed. Is that a new requirement of 4x4R, is that only for some responder groups (I'm in Wales), where can I find more about that? Maybe this was talked about at the training day that happened yesterday, which I missed because I spent the day driving around with a district nurse... (don't believe my profile, I am a responder).

NFU were happy for me to do response "work", not charging me anything, even giving me a bit of paper saying:

"In rural areas volunteers (in bold) may use their vehicle for emergency first response. The vehicles are not fitted with blue lights nor are they allowed to exceed statutory speed limits. Examples are carrying defibrillators, distress rockets for mountain rescues etc.

Many of the vehicles will be used in off road situations.

A check should be made that loads are secure, any hazardous materials are carried in appropriate containers to meet HSE guidelines and drivers hold licenses to carry dangerous materials.

The appropriate Class of Use must be provided bearing in mind the drivers main business and occupation. If the person is retired and has SDP Use, or has SDPC then details should be discussed with the Branch Office.

Agents may accept such cases without Branch referral. No additional premium is required."

I have SDPC and they were happy for me to do it. I did mention the reimbursement of expenses.

Fred RW103

[Tony Ferrari]

Fred

I think it is a local requirement in Wessex

[BobWessex]

NOPE we make no such requirement.

From our point of view when a member joins/renews (s)he confirms at that time that have appropriate insurance and have notified their insurer.

[Tony Ferrari]

In that case, not sure what Paul is referring to?

I'm sure he will explain but no need for anyone to worry about then ;)

[Disco Sam]

Just had a call from Adrian flux and they have no problem with this :)

[Adrian Flux Insurance]

Morning

Adrian Flux Insurance does not apply any additional terms or premiums for voluntary work by 4x4 Response members.

The only time the risk may have to be treated differently is when the member receives excessive allowance, for example more than 40p per mile.

Regards
Dan.

[WessexMario]

In that case, not sure what Paul is referring to?
I'm sure he will explain but no need for anyone to worry about then ;)

We've had an offline discussion and found the offending document.
On our website we had a suggested proforma 'Letter to Insurers' in our documents library that requested an insurance company to confirm their cover for volunteer driving. It was originally used when the group was young and members didn't have the luxury of other's experience like this forum.

The letter had a 'tear off slip' for an insurer to sign to confirm the cover, but in retrospect, that might on occisions be counter-productive as it may unintentionally ring "little warning bells" to an insurer that the potential risk could be more than otherwise, so we've decided to remove it, and just advise members to check their policy documents and confirm 'volunteer driving' use, but without asking for a signature!

[Tony Ferrari]

Mario

Sounds very much like the one produced by "Volunteering England".

[WessexMario]

It may well have originated from there, this one was given to us by the WRVS,
The document is here (http://www.wessex4x4response.org.uk/docs/Insurance1.pdf) (no longer linked from the website)

[Tony Ferrari]

Yes that's the one, WRVS are members of Volunteering England so that would explain it.

And as of today 4x4 Response are members too (well it was free as we have a relatively small turnover) I will be taking a look to see what benefits we might be able to gain (largely information and advice it seems).

[tomskidoodle]

I know it doesn't help the OP, but my standard fully comp, social domestic and pleasure policy, with LV=Frizzell actually states I am allowed "volunteer useage" as part of the standard policy.

A little late for this post, but as a follow up, I am also with LV (Frizzell) and I have confirmation that volunteer useage extends to Response Work provided it is unpaid. So that there could be no misunderstanding, I even discussed the type of work undertaken by our group and other groups around the country. The work of Response Groups was known to LV, and appears to be supported by them within the confines of individuals policies.

Hope this helps!

Tom Stratton
Yorks Lincs 4x4